maybe I'm just hungry for some stimulating conversation

[aphrodite_mine]

Thanks to those who contributed to my recent post about gender and fandom. Towards the bottom of the comments, curt_tone talked about reading a mixture of m/m slash and other fanfiction, and tonight, I got to have an extended conversation with my former roommate chachirinoda about the topic, in lieu of her posting her essay in a comment ;)



ChachiriNoDa (1:10:26 AM): To start, you already know, I write/read mostly yaoi fiction, and have no memory of reading femslash at all (unless it was to beta something you wrote, maybe), and when it comes to het, I often skip it.
ChachiriNoDa (1:11:14 AM): I guess I should start out by admitting that the pic (not the pic itself, but the words) offended me, which made me have to pause and figure out WHY it offended me. Perhaps because of the assumption in it that people who just write/read yaoi and not other "alternative lifestyle choices" (I really hate that phrase, btw) must have something wrong with them. It bounces off my peeve of anyone looking down at something foreign or something they don't understand (like people looking down on people who watch anime) simple because they don’t understand. (“I hear ____’s son watches a bunch of those Japanese cartoons.” “Oh, that’s awful. She should put a stop to that.”) I think that’s the heart of where my offense with it comes from.
ChachiriNoDa (1:11:39 AM): I'm doing some copy/pasting, so let me know when you catch up, so I don't explode your IM window.
coffee with edna (1:12:06 AM): ok, caught up.
ChachiriNoDa (1:12:19 AM): Of course, the poster of that’s signaling out the yaoi fangirls who avoid the yuri and declaring an act of denial as the reason why. I’m assuming she (I use she because most of fandom is female) has specific people in mind when she made the pic, and even if she didn’t, there are plenty who go “eww! Girly parts!” for me to see where the poster is coming from.
ChachiriNoDa (1:13:56 AM): I’ve done that before. It was a running joke in chat where I’d go “eww! Boobies!” I don’t really have a problem with the female body. I’m quite familiar with my own, so I don’t think anyone has grounds for claiming I deny the existence of my own vagina. I honestly think that most of the yaoi fangirls that stay away from the yuri do so simply because yuri doesn’t really interest them at all. This doesn’t explain the bi/lesbians that shy away from yuri, but I can’t really speak for them. Perhaps they just haven’t found the one pairing they can really embrace? Or maybe, it’s hitting too close to home, and fandom isn’t always writing about what’s most familiar, but also about what’s different. Maybe because most of the yuri is badly written (a lot of yaoi is the same way, but with the sheer volume of yaoi, it’s easier to find a good yaoi story than a yuri one). I’ve often thought yaoi is more popular simply because it’s more taboo. People are often more accepting of lesbians than gay men, right? Probably because the idea of anal sex squicks some people. If you look at it that way, yaoi may simply hold more interest for people because of it’s taboo-ness, if that makes any sense.
ChachiriNoDa (1:14:09 AM): there
coffee with edna (1:14:55 AM): that's interesting. Hadn't thought about that point.
coffee with edna (1:14:58 AM): makes sense.
ChachiriNoDa (1:15:07 AM): which part?
ChachiriNoDa (1:15:14 AM): *just honestly wants to talk about it*
coffee with edna (1:15:29 AM): Oh, the yaoi being more controversial, and that's why its more popular.
ChachiriNoDa (1:15:43 AM): I could use some intelligent conversation after spending two days babysitting
coffee with edna (1:15:49 AM): lol
ChachiriNoDa (1:16:04 AM): I've always thought yaoi being that way.
ChachiriNoDa (1:17:10 AM): There's also a point that while some of those yaoi fangirls are bi/lesbian, they may not be out with their families, so getting caught reading yuri might feel more risky than getting caught reading yaoi.
coffee with edna (1:17:27 AM): Alright.
coffee with edna (1:17:57 AM): What about the het thing though --- and also, expanding this past anime.
ChachiriNoDa (1:18:01 AM): A large portion of fandom's also underage, depending on which fandom you're in.
ChachiriNoDa (1:18:19 AM): They'd be more worried about it than older people.
coffee with edna (1:18:25 AM): Yeah.


coffee with edna (1:20:05 AM): It's also a little worrisome for me... I found fandom as a kind of sexual awakening. If I had been in a fandom that was predominated by male characters or male/male pairings... how would that affect my view of women?
coffee with edna (1:20:24 AM): Do you think yaoi changes people's views of women or - if they are women - themselves?
ChachiriNoDa (1:21:31 AM): I don't think yaoi usually has enough women in it, and then, the focus isn't on them. I can't remember the last fic I read where the guy got together with another guy because of a girl.
ChachiriNoDa (1:22:09 AM): There's also yaoi based on non-yaoi canon vs. yaoi canon involved there.
coffee with edna (1:22:16 AM): Right.
coffee with edna (1:22:32 AM): Which is a whole other layered issue.
ChachiriNoDa (1:22:35 AM): The yaoi that comes from actually yaoi canon, often doesn't bother with woman at all.
ChachiriNoDa (1:22:48 AM): And then, the women are usually supporting the gay.
coffee with edna (1:25:19 AM): I think what I'm most concerned with are when there is a well rounded show and - I think escritoireazul commented to this effect? - women are watching and can't find a single woman to identify with, either on that show, or on any... and either because of that, or in spite of it, they focus on the men because the men are more interesting (whether this is actually the case or not - which is ANOTHER issue) which leads to male slash, or male slash "goggles" leads the other way...
ChachiriNoDa (1:26:01 AM): Yeah, I actually think that's very true.
ChachiriNoDa (1:26:29 AM): I had a part below that I haven't shared yet where I explain why I don't read yuri where I bring that up.
coffee with edna (1:26:37 AM): ooooh
ChachiriNoDa (1:27:13 AM): So I'll continue with that. A lot of the paragraphs after this are redundant, because I was trying to figure out how to word what I mean.
coffee with edna (1:27:33 AM): Alright.
ChachiriNoDa (1:28:03 AM): I'll start with my original example where I used prince of tennis, but I get to wellrounded shows later, I promise. XD
coffee with edna (1:28:10 AM): lol ^_^
ChachiriNoDa (1:28:14 AM): That said, I don’t read yuri. More often than not, I don’t connect with a female character enough that I want to write about her. Prince of Tennis is one of the only fandoms I write in, and you know the lack of female in there. The yaoi happens because none of the boys seem to notice the few girls that are there. Tomoka and Sakura (main to female girls if you can’t remember) happen to be the main two female types that I absolutely can’t stand. Sakura’s too meek to warrant existing, and Tomoka is too obnoxious. An is the only girl that age in the show that has any appeal at all, and I can’t put her with one of the other two, because I wouldn’t force them upon anyone. The only other female character in PoT that I like is Ryuzaki-sensei, and then, her in the manga. (She doesn’t do much in the anime). I can’t exactly ship grandma with An, because the two generations between them is a bit too big an age gap for me.
coffee with edna (1:29:00 AM): *giggles*
ChachiriNoDa (1:29:14 AM): I don’t know if you’ve seen Torchwood. It’s a Doctor Who spin-off. I don’t know anything about Doctor Who myself, but Torchwood is amazing. I love both of the main female characters in it. Tosh being my favorite. If I found good fic with her in it, I’d probably read it even if it was yuri.
ChachiriNoDa (1:29:41 AM): That's honestly true too, because Tosh is amazing.
coffee with edna (1:29:53 AM): *nods* That's cool. Good to know, too.
ChachiriNoDa (1:30:38 AM): But's she's canonically smitten with a male character, so I'd probably lean more to that than the yuri. She does have a good female cast mate though that makes the yuri more valid.
ChachiriNoDa (1:31:01 AM): Tosh even sleeps with a female alien, that was a pretty awesome episode.
ChachiriNoDa (1:31:08 AM): anyway, I got side-tracked.
coffee with edna (1:31:10 AM): :)
ChachiriNoDa (1:31:40 AM): That aside, she’s the only female character that I can remember actually connecting with. She seems real to me in a way most female characters don’t. There are whole studies and paths of academia that discuss the representation of women in literature and how, more often than not, they’re usually flat characters. I believe the big reasoning behind it is that it was a male dominated field for so long, and even female authors are influenced by the male literature they take in, right? I haven’t done much research into it myself, so I can’t say anything about this really. I just know, in my personal experience, a lot of the female characters I see (which may have to do with the particular media I take in, no doubt) just don’t feel real enough to warrant a second look.
ChachiriNoDa (1:31:54 AM): That's the last, mostly clear paragraph.
ChachiriNoDa (1:32:10 AM): I have more, but they're kinda rambling. I can share them too
coffee with edna (1:32:30 AM): I agree, its a big problem, and its probably - ok, definitely - a big part of this "issue"
ChachiriNoDa (1:32:50 AM): yeah
ChachiriNoDa (1:33:08 AM): With me, I'd read the yuri if I can like the characters involved.
ChachiriNoDa (1:33:14 AM): But I usually don't.
ChachiriNoDa (1:33:44 AM): And if it's not the character herself I don't like, it's the fic author's version of her I don't like.
coffee with edna (1:33:54 AM): I'm actually the same way. But I guess my exposure to female characters is bigger?
ChachiriNoDa (1:34:01 AM): I think so.
ChachiriNoDa (1:34:21 AM): Again, I spend most of my time looking for male dominated media.
coffee with edna (1:34:27 AM): Right.
ChachiriNoDa (1:34:45 AM): I'm sure if I watched some of the stuff you did, I'd like some of those women too.


ChachiriNoDa (1:35:12 AM): I think with women characters it's just harder in general.
ChachiriNoDa (1:35:26 AM): With men, we don't have to feel like we connect with them to read them.
coffee with edna (1:35:32 AM): Oh I do.
ChachiriNoDa (1:35:38 AM): And with women, we want to understand them.
ChachiriNoDa (1:36:06 AM): Well, I mean, solidly connect. I'm willing to sacrifice some understanding because they're male.
ChachiriNoDa (1:36:48 AM): With women, there's no gender barrier to consider, if we can't understand where the chick is coming from, it's harder to mess with her.
coffee with edna (1:37:04 AM): Maybe it goes back to what we want from the beginning. Because I spend my time seeking out solid women characters in shows and movies, and I imagine your goals are very different. I mean, entertainment is key, but I LOVE something that gives me a good female character. And the more the better.
ChachiriNoDa (1:37:22 AM): I think I mean, we have higher expectations for women, because we're women. That's it.
coffee with edna (1:37:36 AM): Judging them harsher?
ChachiriNoDa (1:37:39 AM): right
coffee with edna (1:37:46 AM): I guess I have the opposite reaction
coffee with edna (1:38:08 AM): To a certain point.
ChachiriNoDa (1:38:36 AM): Well, there are points where a male character does something and we can go "oh, that's a man thing".
ChachiriNoDa (1:38:57 AM): And while we can do that with women, if it's not something we can identify with, it makes the woman seem less real
coffee with edna (1:39:16 AM): Wow... I *never* let that go. No man thing gets by. There isn't any.. man thing.
ChachiriNoDa (1:39:23 AM): hahaha
coffee with edna (1:39:34 AM): That just means bad characterization.
coffee with edna (1:39:42 AM): lmao
ChachiriNoDa (1:40:06 AM): It's like "If it wasn't for that macho pride thing, I could identify with ____ here."
ChachiriNoDa (1:40:23 AM): I guess I'm a little more forgiving for that.
coffee with edna (1:40:56 AM): Well, I get that stuff. I just. How is that different from not being able to identify with what a woman does?
ChachiriNoDa (1:41:25 AM): It's not, it's that we're more inclined to excuse it.
ChachiriNoDa (1:42:09 AM): If a woman does something that stereotypically a "woman" thing that we don't agree with, we don't brush it off. More likely to even be offended.
coffee with edna (1:42:34 AM): Can you give an example?
ChachiriNoDa (1:43:04 AM): If I think long enough, probably. I haven't had much exposure to female characters in a long while.
coffee with edna (1:43:32 AM): lol it's ok. This is really interesting.
ChachiriNoDa (1:44:54 AM): From the man side of it, say, a guy does something completely stupid because of a dare. We can brush that off, because we know that pride had a lot to do with it, and they felt if they backed down, it wouldn't be manly.
ChachiriNoDa (1:45:21 AM): We can think they're stupid, but it doesn't necessarily turn you off the character.
coffee with edna (1:45:49 AM): Okay. yeah.
ChachiriNoDa (1:46:05 AM): If a woman did a dare that she knew would get her in trouble, we're more inclined to think she's stupid, than to think she felt like she couldn't back down.
ChachiriNoDa (1:46:27 AM): And we wouldn't forgive it that easy.
ChachiriNoDa (1:46:47 AM): Does that make sense?
ChachiriNoDa (1:47:17 AM): I keep using "we" to mean "female" here, btw.
coffee with edna (1:47:19 AM): It would define her more as a character, certainly, than it would the man.
ChachiriNoDa (1:47:24 AM): In a generic sense.
ChachiriNoDa (1:47:26 AM): right
coffee with edna (1:47:37 AM): but, okay, I get what youre saying.
ChachiriNoDa (1:48:47 AM): So little things like that alter our view of the female character, where as the same thing wouldn't be considered to be much of anything if a male one did it.
coffee with edna (1:49:03 AM): Okay.
ChachiriNoDa (1:50:09 AM): And it's part of seeing if from the female prospective too, because we normally judge people based on ourselves.
coffee with edna (1:50:23 AM): Oh definitely.
ChachiriNoDa (1:51:23 AM): So the judgement normally goes harsher on women in fandom than it does on men, because most of fandom is female.
ChachiriNoDa (1:51:37 AM): We normally judge men based on other men we know, I guess.
coffee with edna (1:51:46 AM): Unless you're a feminist lesbian, I guess.
ChachiriNoDa (1:52:34 AM): I mean, we start with comparing to ourselves, but we're more likely to consider another man when judging a man than we are to consider another woman, to judge a woman.
ChachiriNoDa (1:53:15 AM): I'm not sure that made sense to me. But I think I know what I'm saying
coffee with edna (1:53:38 AM): lol. I'm *barely* hanging on to you here. :P
ChachiriNoDa (1:53:52 AM): Yeah, I think I'm rambling past myself too.
coffee with edna (1:54:35 AM): I'm pretty sure I just use myself as point of reference unless a particular character like, reminds me of someone... and usually that's a negative thing, so.
ChachiriNoDa (1:55:05 AM): Right. We normally use ourselves as reference.
coffee with edna (1:55:19 AM): *thinks about male friends* Nope... never thought about them in a fandom context... and I write many men now.
ChachiriNoDa (1:56:19 AM): I just think we'd judge women on our ideal for what women should be, and our ideal for what men should be.
ChachiriNoDa (1:56:34 AM): And we'd be less lenient on women, because we're women.
coffee with edna (1:57:02 AM): except if we're feminists.
coffee with edna (1:57:15 AM): :)
ChachiriNoDa (1:57:34 AM): I'll go with that, but a lot of people the original poster mentions probably aren't.
coffee with edna (1:57:42 AM): RIght.
coffee with edna (1:58:03 AM): I think the responses became less about the original poster though.
ChachiriNoDa (1:58:09 AM): Yeah.
coffee with edna (1:58:28 AM): I probably should have gone with my original plan and thought through my thoughts and posted them with the image.
ChachiriNoDa (1:58:28 AM): I think in general, women judge other women harsher than men.
ChachiriNoDa (1:59:11 AM): And part of that can come from self-scrutiny.
coffee with edna (1:59:21 AM): yes.
coffee with edna (2:00:02 AM): Being uncomfortable with oneself - in anyway - would make it pretty near impossible to be comfortable with another woman, let alone two.
ChachiriNoDa (2:00:07 AM): or just self-evaluaton rather
ChachiriNoDa (2:00:15 AM): right
ChachiriNoDa (2:00:52 AM): but even with a healthy self-evaluation, if you're thorough with yourself, you'll be thorough with others.
ChachiriNoDa (2:01:04 AM): gah, I keep talking in a circle
ChachiriNoDa (2:01:22 AM): *tries to figure out what's she's trying to say*
coffee with edna (2:01:33 AM): evaluation doesn't mean deaying people though.
coffee with edna (2:01:47 AM): just because you see faults doesn't mean you can't write about them.
ChachiriNoDa (2:01:52 AM): right
coffee with edna (2:01:54 AM): my favorite characters are the most messed up.
coffee with edna (2:02:05 AM): that's what i love about myself and them lol
ChachiriNoDa (2:02:41 AM): But some faults people can handle, and some faults just grate on them.
coffee with edna (2:02:52 AM): (using you as a collective female and not in the accusatory form, sorry)
ChachiriNoDa (2:03:06 AM): (I know what you mean.)
ChachiriNoDa (2:03:20 AM): (It's how I keep using "we" when I don't mean me and you.)
coffee with edna (2:03:45 AM): which is understandable. not everyone is like me and writes a story about the character they hate to try to get over their hatred. because that's a total waste of time an energy and its a dumb idea to begin with.
ChachiriNoDa (2:03:54 AM): hahaha
ChachiriNoDa (2:04:15 AM): Let's see if I can find a character to work with on this.
coffee with edna (2:04:20 AM): though, getting into some dumb bitch's head is an interesting exercise.
ChachiriNoDa (2:04:28 AM): Do you know Relena, from Gundam Wing?
coffee with edna (2:04:31 AM): yep
ChachiriNoDa (2:04:36 AM): How nearly all of fandom hates her?
coffee with edna (2:04:39 AM): oh yes.
ChachiriNoDa (2:04:53 AM): Well, a lot of the reasons why are pure fandom.
ChachiriNoDa (2:05:02 AM): She's does obsess and get in the way.
ChachiriNoDa (2:05:18 AM): But most people don't really start to hate her until they read fic about her.
ChachiriNoDa (2:05:39 AM): Certainly, somebody really had to hate her like that to get it started.
ChachiriNoDa (2:05:53 AM): But's it's almost fandom bandwagon now.
coffee with edna (2:05:58 AM): Or, maybe, they were just making a joke. Which.. is just... sad.
coffee with edna (2:06:02 AM): The whole thing is sad.
ChachiriNoDa (2:06:06 AM): it is
ChachiriNoDa (2:06:22 AM): There are a bunch of really good things about Relena as a character.
coffee with edna (2:06:28 AM): I agree.
ChachiriNoDa (2:06:39 AM): But the fandom picked on her obsession and made it the big kicker.
ChachiriNoDa (2:06:56 AM): The same point can be said about Wufei too.
ChachiriNoDa (2:07:32 AM): But you'll find a lot more fiction where Wufei isn't a justice-ranting chauvanist than you would an intelligent, respectable Relena.
coffee with edna (2:07:42 AM): Right.
ChachiriNoDa (2:08:21 AM): And it may be a stereotype that just enough women do possess, but we are less forgiving of other women.
ChachiriNoDa (2:08:31 AM): The whole "hold grudges" thing.
coffee with edna (2:08:53 AM): I wouldn't say that's just against other women though.
ChachiriNoDa (2:09:02 AM): no, it's not.
ChachiriNoDa (2:09:12 AM): Women hold grudges against men too.
ChachiriNoDa (2:09:42 AM): It would be worth reading a study on it.
coffee with edna (2:10:05 AM): (And wow, I know a lot of grudge holding men... but since we're not talking about men... lol. It might just be a human trait.)
ChachiriNoDa (2:10:18 AM): Yeah, I know men do it too.
ChachiriNoDa (2:10:33 AM): But it's consider a female trait, which I why I was using it.
ChachiriNoDa (2:10:52 AM): The problem with stereotypes is that they're stereotypes.
coffee with edna (2:10:57 AM): Yeah.
ChachiriNoDa (2:11:33 AM): Not everybody fits them, but most are based in truth, though often exaggerated truth.
coffee with edna (2:11:41 AM): mmhmm


ChachiriNoDa (2:12:31 AM): Anyway, my whole response was to find a valid reason for why yaoi fangirls don't do het that wasn't as stupid sounding as "denying their vagina".
coffee with edna (2:13:03 AM): lol
ChachiriNoDa (2:13:30 AM): I'm sure there are probably some who aren't comfortably with writing yuri, because they aren't comfortable with themselves.
ChachiriNoDa (2:13:52 AM): But I'm pretty sure that it's not the case for most of them.
ChachiriNoDa (2:14:10 AM): I'm sure for most, it's just that they aren't interested.
ChachiriNoDa (2:14:59 AM): I really can't say why bi/lesbians aren't interested.
ChachiriNoDa (2:15:14 AM): And while a lot of writers are that, most of them aren't.
ChachiriNoDa (2:15:58 AM): So that's where all the reasoning came in, was to trying to find a reason for women in general to not write yuri.
coffee with edna (2:16:31 AM): *nods*
ChachiriNoDa (2:16:54 AM): I've seen that picture before by the way
ChachiriNoDa (2:17:00 AM): I remember it. XD
coffee with edna (2:17:01 AM): Yeah, its from Fingersmith
ChachiriNoDa (2:17:15 AM): I felt proud of myself for recognizing it.
coffee with edna (2:17:20 AM): hehehe!
ChachiriNoDa (2:19:17 AM): Anyway, for me personally, yuri just doesn't have much interest. Main reason being that I don't like most of the females in fiction.
ChachiriNoDa (2:19:43 AM): But as I have a general dislike for many women and men, it's not all that surprising.
coffee with edna (2:20:00 AM): Thank you for sharing this
ChachiriNoDa (2:20:09 AM): I'm glad too!

Comments

[ginevra-alessa.livejournal.com]

Well, obviously males who prefer to watch lesbian porn suffer from cock shame :p

[aphrodite-mine.livejournal.com]

BUT THATS NOT WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

Save it for another post, sistah. ;)

[ginevra-alessa.livejournal.com]

I just meant that the idea of two members of the opposite sex being involved with one another seems to hold an appeal in many cultures and it has nothing to do with body or gender shame whatsoever.

But anyway I seem to only be able to read fics about male characters when they are slashed with other males I think because in that context, when they are written as vulnerable and tender with one another, they remind me of women and it makes them accessible.

The only exception is incest, because I do enjoy some het incest, but generally that is also handled in a way that makes males act very differently then they would in a traditional het relationship. Again, there seems to be another level of emotional depth that arises from the tragedy of the whole situation.

As for general het, I don't see the appeal at all. Fanfic and fandom in general for me is about escapism and a world where anything is possible and heteronormativity is really everywhere you freaking look so if I wanted to be exposed to that all I would have to do is pick up any book or turn on the television or go to a movie or walk down the street.

As for why some bi/lesbians don't read femslash (and I know some who don't), I imagine it's not very foreign or exotic to them. We can have lesbian sex, we don't need to read about it. Reading m/m gives us a chance to experience something we will never experience in life. I know that's how I felt when I went through a phase of *only* reading Ryan/Seth from the OC fic. But basically just the whole idea of men being vulnerable and intimate and emotional together is so, so hot to me because it's something you don't see very often. Women can be that way in friendships all the time. But male friendships are portrayed as so restrained even when they are having a bonding moment and I just want to see them cross that line into being totally emotionally naked with one another and when they do it's so delicious.

Also I think for some people yaoi is a way to enjoy male sexuality without seeing it as a threat to your own sexuality because it is acceptable for bi/les girls to enjoy the m/m but if you're a lesbian and you're drawn to a het ship it can make you wonder if you'd like to be in a het ship and lead to question your sexuality (though this sounds ridiculous, it has happened to me...) Also if you're writing m/m, other les/bi friends think it's lovely but if you're writing het, they can be all "whyyyyy are you writing het???" which is kind of close minded but whatever. But if it's incest, it's not considered caving into the whole heteronormativity thing because incest is still basically another form of alternative sexuality.

So if you writing m/m, you are still supporting gayness so it's yay and approved.

Personally, I have always been drawn to female characters since childhood and found the male ones totally uninteresting except in a few select cases prolly cuz I am that big of man-hating lesbian ZOMG! Except I don't hate men, they just bore me. Unless they are kissing other men. Cuz then they are made feminine and lovely.

And I really don't want to do my take home essay exam so this is probably a lot of procrastinating...

[ginevra-alessa.livejournal.com]

Not that I mean shipping two het characters in any way compromises your gayness, but with me, the problem was that the more I fixated on the couple, the more I realized that I wanted to *be* the girl in that relationship and that led to somewhat of an identity crisis.

[aphrodite-mine.livejournal.com]

Totally understandable, and also a big part is public perception. I've had that issue in my fandom interactions.

[aphrodite-mine.livejournal.com]

You've made tons of interesting points. I don't think I can even begin to understand the idea as a whole.

[twistomatic.livejournal.com]

See, I'm right with you there, Marcia, with the gravitating towards certain shows/books/fandoms/whatever. I don't like men. I don't like watching them, reading about them or anything else. I have zero interest in male characters, which is why I almost always watch shows with 1:1 ratio between male and female characters or ones that have a greater amount of female characters than male characters. The one show I watch that focuses on male characters is Supernatural -- who do I like? The two female characters, Bela and Ruby. But I'm not big in the fandom, either. I only watch that show because the subject matter interests me (though I kind of don't really care even that much anymore). I mean, look at the fandoms I'm big in: Sailor Moon, Buffy, Degrassi (well, less now), South of Nowhere, Last Friends, Revolutionary Girl Utena, Wicked. All of these shows either focus on females or have a 1:1 ratio cast.

Now, of course, there's one show that's an anomaly. I said I only liked one show that focuses on male characters. But I also like watching the various Law & Order shows too. And yes, Jack McCoy is one of my favorite characters. But I've always felt like L&O was a different type of show than most. It's more simplistic. Less focus on the characters, more focus on the investigation/trial of the week. For some reason, this causes me to like the male (and obvs, female) characters. I think it's because I'm not forced to care about them. Everything about the characters is told in a matter-of-fact type of way; they don't spend episodes agonizing over everything. You don't have to sympathize about any of the characters. Liking the characters is not essential to enjoying the show as a whole. And also, the show has strong women characters as well. Even though there may be fewer of them, they're always presented as being just as good (if not sometimes better) than the male characters.

So, obviously, I don't like male characters. I can't identify at all with them, in any way. So 99.9% of the time, I don't read m/m fic. If I do read it, it's because parcae wrote crack fic, and the m/m factor is greatly downplayed. Or it's because someone (again, probably parcae) linked me to it as a reference to something else. But I'd never read it on my own. It doesn't squick me, I'm just apathetic about it. It's not enjoyable to read. The same goes for m/f fic, too. (Unless it's rape fic, but that's a completely different topic; in that case I only like it for the kink factor, and there isn't enough f/f rape fic being written.)

But that's just me. I'm aware that most people don't feel the same as I do. at the same time, I also can't understand why girls who are bi/lesbian would be completely adverse to reading f/f (if it's written well). Now, I know some people just generally read more m/m fics because their fandoms are more male-oriented (again, I'm going to mention parcae, because we've actually had a similar sort of discussion before about all this). But I know that she does read f/f, and is not like, Ew, gross, girl parts. So, yeah.

Long comment is long.

[aphrodite-mine.livejournal.com]

I guess just as interesting topic (though probably less prevalent) would be females who avoid male characters.

Oh gender and fandom. You open such a pandora's box!

Thanks for your essay, btw. :D

[escritoireazul.livejournal.com]

coffee with edna (1:25:19 AM): I think what I'm most concerned with are when there is a well rounded show and - I think [info]escritoireazul commented to this effect? - women are watching and can't find a single woman to identify with, either on that show, or on any... and either because of that, or in spite of it, they focus on the men because the men are more interesting (whether this is actually the case or not - which is ANOTHER issue) which leads to male slash, or male slash "goggles" leads the other way...

What I meant when I was saying that is that is the excuse of many fans, that they don't write girl slash or het because the women just aren't interesting. Any women. In any source material. And I think that says more about them, and their internal hang ups about women, than it does about the presentation of women in media. Because yeah, it often sucks, but if you can find men to like, you can find women to like, too.

I really want to engage in this conversation more, but I am currently too pissed to be polite, and so I am going to stay away. I think a lot of it has to do with the current conversation going on in Supernatural fandom, but when your ex-roommate said that she was more forgiving of male characters because it's a guy thing, I saw red and just have to back away. Because that's one of those phrases which makes me think there are more issues than just the availability of women in the source material.

[aphrodite-mine.livejournal.com]

I wish there was a way we could all chat about it, though it would seem that some people are just more disinclined to post in comment.

And I had a LOT of trouble with the being more forgiving of males thing too, probably more than comes across in the chat transcript.